Easiest technique to master?

[ozzieboy]

Originally Posted by Misti

It's interesting that you guys say looking through the turn because for a lot of people this is really really hard to do.

I would also say that there are varying degrees of "looking through a turn". What I consider looking through a turn (or how far through the turn I'm looking) could be very different from what you think looking though a turn is.

Why do you think some find this easy to do while others struggle with it? Are there certain things that some do, or have done in the past that make it more second nature than others?

I remember when I was learning to drive my instructor asked me if I was a skier because I automatically shoulder checked when I changed lanes without him having to teach me to do it. He said that skiers were more natural with their visual skills than non-skiers.

Cheers,
Misti

I would have a hard time wobbling around corners and changing my lines if I didn't look through the turn....I seriously can't understand how anyone could ride without doing it. It would feel totally un-natural.

For me, looking through the turn means...(and I gave this a bit of thought first, so I think I've got it all in there...lol.)

Just before braking, A quick head check of the exit if it's visible (just in case...see picture),
P7240142.jpgIf these guys flick a look now they will see me.

then my eyes sweep the braking zone then braking begins. Eyes move through the turn and then I tip in using peripheral to spot the center line. Depending on how gnarly the turn is and how far through it I can see I try to look about 2/3 of the way through at tip in and I'm already looking at the exit before I'm at the apex.

This will give you an idea what I mean. Bear in mind these roads are covered with gum trees so there are branches and leaf litter to dodge all on bitumen layed over tree roots....lol....so scanning the braking area and sweeping up and through the turn is critical.

FZ! Cruising the hills on Vimeo

There is also one merge in it (on a bend) and you can see a head check over the right shoulder. (The old man used to drive the family all over OZ and always managed to pull us out of harm's way. If he says always check your blind spot....always check your blind spot).

You'll also notice that for left handers I hang off (a little....only a cruise after all) but push my head back up to see as far around the bend as I can. Again this is all about self preservation and not about correct form.

The one and only time I was at the track, I could look all the way through the turn from just after tip in. This also makes it easier to suck it up when the tail starts to squirm and slip under acceleration for some reason....maybe a middle ear/sight of the horizon thing affecting balance.

I really do feel it is easier to do than getting my boots on the correct feet...lol.

Cheers
Mike

[Misti]

Originally Posted by ozzieboy

I would have a hard time wobbling around corners and changing my lines if I didn't look through the turn....I seriously can't understand how anyone could ride without doing it. It would feel totally un-natural.

For me, looking through the turn means...(and I gave this a bit of thought first, so I think I've got it all in there...lol.)

Just before braking, A quick head check of the exit if it's visible (just in case...see picture),
Attachment 24847If these guys flick a look now they will see me.

then my eyes sweep the braking zone then braking begins. Eyes move through the turn and then I tip in using peripheral to spot the center line. Depending on how gnarly the turn is and how far through it I can see I try to look about 2/3 of the way through at tip in and I'm already looking at the exit before I'm at the apex.

This will give you an idea what I mean. Bear in mind these roads are covered with gum trees so there are branches and leaf litter to dodge all on bitumen layed over tree roots....lol....so scanning the braking area and sweeping up and through the turn is critical.

FZ! Cruising the hills on Vimeo

There is also one merge in it (on a bend) and you can see a head check over the right shoulder. (The old man used to drive the family all over OZ and always managed to pull us out of harm's way. If he says always check your blind spot....always check your blind spot).

You'll also notice that for left handers I hang off (a little....only a cruise after all) but push my head back up to see as far around the bend as I can. Again this is all about self preservation and not about correct form.

The one and only time I was at the track, I could look all the way through the turn from just after tip in. This also makes it easier to suck it up when the tail starts to squirm and slip under acceleration for some reason....maybe a middle ear/sight of the horizon thing affecting balance.

I really do feel it is easier to do than getting my boots on the correct feet...lol.

Cheers
Mike

Hey Mike,

Thanks for taking the time to really think through your process of cornering and for giving us such a detailed explanation of what your eyes are doing.

I like that you mention that you do a quick "head check" into the turn to see if the exit is visible BEFORE you actually turn the bike. What a lot of people do is look and turn the bike at the very same time which doesn't really give them a lot of info about the turn.

If you were at the Superbike School though we would probably coach you to look into the turn, spot your apex point and then use your peripheral vision to keep track of the braking zone and where you want to turn the bike in (instead of looking back at the braking zone).

To clarify, we would have you approach the turn, figure out where you wanted to turn the bike, look into the apex and continue looking at where you wanted the bike to be in the middle of the turn while the bike was still going straight until you turned the bike. We call it the "two-step" It helps make your lines more consistent and it helps control your sense of speed.

Did that make sense?

I also watched your video and had a question for you. Do you think that you could be turning the bike with less effort that you are using now? Do your arms ever get tired? What is the exact method you use for getting the bike to turn?

OK, that was three questions....

Misti

[ozzieboy]

Originally Posted by Misti

Hey Mike,

Thanks for taking the time to really think through your process of cornering and for giving us such a detailed explanation of what your eyes are doing.

I like that you mention that you do a quick "head check" into the turn to see if the exit is visible BEFORE you actually turn the bike. What a lot of people do is look and turn the bike at the very same time which doesn't really give them a lot of info about the turn.

If you were at the Superbike School though we would probably coach you to look into the turn, spot your apex point and then use your peripheral vision to keep track of the braking zone and where you want to turn the bike in (instead of looking back at the braking zone).

To clarify, we would have you approach the turn, figure out where you wanted to turn the bike, look into the apex and continue looking at where you wanted the bike to be in the middle of the turn while the bike was still going straight until you turned the bike. We call it the "two-step" It helps make your lines more consistent and it helps control your sense of speed.

Did that make sense?

I also watched your video and had a question for you. Do you think that you could be turning the bike with less effort that you are using now? Do your arms ever get tired? What is the exact method you use for getting the bike to turn?

OK, that was three questions....

Misti

LOL...Ouch my head....More thinking.

It takes very little effort to tip in for a turn, and I just generally put a little pressure on the bar that goes low. Once lean angle is achieved then it's hold on with the legs and try not to input the bars unless you need to change line (eeew! messy) or slide a little (yay fun!). Sliding the body over helps with pushing the bars as well, but in Draggin' Jeans they tend to grip the seat and you'll see me having to lift myself up and over...lol....soooo much easier in my DriRiders or leathers.

Also the knee pointing out in the direction of the turn helps to not need to hang on with the arms and with pressing the bar forward, but you'll notice I've got my leg firmly tucked up next to the tank....lol...With Draggins on I try to keep my knee as far from the road as I can and even further from tree roots and cat's eyes...lol...Probably didn't need to in that vid as I was going quite casually. I have some pretty horrid arthritis in my hands so they get a little sore after a few hundred kays, but the arms can go all night like a lumberjack.

Very few sore after affects for me at all really. I could quite happily have ridden home after 7, 15-20minute sessions at my track day, and you can bet I would've taken the long twisty way...lol.

When I start to go harder I position my body a lot more over the bars for the extra weight and keep my chest closer to the bike as well to assist with drag.

For quick direction changes I lean over the front and push/pull the bars instead of just pushing and force the quick direction change...perfect for Lobie road (as long as the front is still on the ground). This is one of the advantages of being a strong nuggety type...lol....weight to keep the front down and strength to smoothly force the bike up and over the other way, while dragging myself across the seat. This is probably why I don't find the FZ1 any less flickable than the FZ6.

I'm sure my track riding technique sucks...lol...but I'm a product of my environment.

eg. The quick scan of the braking area and the eyes sliding through the desired route through the bend before looking through the turn, paid dividends the other night, as some cager had ploughed into the embankment and covered a particularly nice bend in gravel and dirt. Couldn't see the gravel and dirt round the bend, but I was already backed off and easing on the brakes before they came into view, whereas if I relied on peripheral to pick up the car's impact point I would've just discerned a lighter coloured patch of dirt in the wall and been right on top of the gravel before seeing it.

The 'two step' explanation for the track sounds about right to me (not that I'd know any better anyway...lol.),and probably isn't that far off what I was doing really. At the track I need to work on my braking points more I think, but let's face it, one day at a small track with 41 other people on at the same time is not the best environment for consistent speeds so for the first part of the day my braking points were continually changing. Having said that not too many people get under 1:30 there, their first time out, even on litre bikes so 1:26's and maybe a 1:25 on a stock-as-a-rock FZ6 (even had the feelers on PMSL) isn't too disgraceful...lol...phew!

I'm with Wolfman in that I'd love to go to Phillip Island for a Superbike school sesh, but that may be a while as it's somewhat of an exercise in logistics.

It's pretty groovy to have an instructor on here asking these sorts of questions. Even if it gets folks thinking about how they do ride and nothing else, I'd say that's a win.

Cheers
Mike

	FZ1-Forum

[Misti]

Originally Posted by ozzieboy

LOL...Ouch my head....More thinking.

It takes very little effort to tip in for a turn, and I just generally put a little pressure on the bar that goes low. Once lean angle is achieved then it's hold on with the legs and try not to input the bars unless you need to change line (eeew! messy) or slide a little (yay fun!). Sliding the body over helps with pushing the bars as well, but in Draggin' Jeans they tend to grip the seat and you'll see me having to lift myself up and over...lol....soooo much easier in my DriRiders or leathers.

Also the knee pointing out in the direction of the turn helps to not need to hang on with the arms and with pressing the bar forward, but you'll notice I've got my leg firmly tucked up next to the tank....lol...With Draggins on I try to keep my knee as far from the road as I can and even further from tree roots and cat's eyes...lol...Probably didn't need to in that vid as I was going quite casually. I have some pretty horrid arthritis in my hands so they get a little sore after a few hundred kays, but the arms can go all night like a lumberjack.

Very few sore after affects for me at all really. I could quite happily have ridden home after 7, 15-20minute sessions at my track day, and you can bet I would've taken the long twisty way...lol.

When I start to go harder I position my body a lot more over the bars for the extra weight and keep my chest closer to the bike as well to assist with drag.

For quick direction changes I lean over the front and push/pull the bars instead of just pushing and force the quick direction change...perfect for Lobie road (as long as the front is still on the ground). This is one of the advantages of being a strong nuggety type...lol....weight to keep the front down and strength to smoothly force the bike up and over the other way, while dragging myself across the seat. This is probably why I don't find the FZ1 any less flickable than the FZ6.

I'm sure my track riding technique sucks...lol...but I'm a product of my environment.

eg. The quick scan of the braking area and the eyes sliding through the desired route through the bend before looking through the turn, paid dividends the other night, as some cager had ploughed into the embankment and covered a particularly nice bend in gravel and dirt. Couldn't see the gravel and dirt round the bend, but I was already backed off and easing on the brakes before they came into view, whereas if I relied on peripheral to pick up the car's impact point I would've just discerned a lighter coloured patch of dirt in the wall and been right on top of the gravel before seeing it.

The 'two step' explanation for the track sounds about right to me (not that I'd know any better anyway...lol.),and probably isn't that far off what I was doing really. At the track I need to work on my braking points more I think, but let's face it, one day at a small track with 41 other people on at the same time is not the best environment for consistent speeds so for the first part of the day my braking points were continually changing. Having said that not too many people get under 1:30 there, their first time out, even on litre bikes so 1:26's and maybe a 1:25 on a stock-as-a-rock FZ6 (even had the feelers on PMSL) isn't too disgraceful...lol...phew!

I'm with Wolfman in that I'd love to go to Phillip Island for a Superbike school sesh, but that may be a while as it's somewhat of an exercise in logistics.

It's pretty groovy to have an instructor on here asking these sorts of questions. Even if it gets folks thinking about how they do ride and nothing else, I'd say that's a win.

Cheers
Mike

Hi Mike,

Hehehehe, love getting people to think about their riding and I'm glad you like my questions. I enjoyed reading your response. The reason why I asked you about getting the bike turned and whether or not your arms get tired is because of your body position in the video. Two things that I noticed 1: you seem to be sitting fairly close to the tank, and 2: your arms are very straight while you are initiating the turn and riding through it.

I have a feeling that you would be able to turn the bike in even more effortlessly than you already feel like you are able to do and that the bike would feel even more flickable if you were able to bend your arms a bit so your elbows were pointing down (sitting back in the seat a little with help create more room so that you can create that bend). What that does is it allows you to press FORWARD on the bars instead of DOWN on the bars to initiate the steering. This will turn the bike MUCH quicker and with less effort that steering with arms straight and pressing down on the bars.

You are probably turning it quickly already and it is great that you don't feel tired and that you are using your legs to grip the tank, but I have a feeling we could make it even better for ya.

There are several benefits to getting the bike turned quickly like this, one of course is that it takes less effort to turn the bike....and I'll let you guys come up with the other reasons What are some other benefits of turning a bike quickly?

Mike, give this a try and see if you notice any difference. Just thought I would throw that suggestion out based on what I was seeing in the vid.

Cheers, and do get yourself out to Phillip Island for a school I'm hoping to ride that track one of these days as well. My hubby is from Down Under so we're trying to plan a visit!

Misti

	FZ1-Forum

[steveindenmark]

Learning to keep your distance from the vehicle in front is pretty easy to learn.

But if you watch Youtube and read stories on here you would think it almost impossible to learn.

Steve

[Scorphonic]

I'll say countersteering for this one. Its a natural thing for us to do without knowing it, when we become aware of it then it gets difficult..haha!!

[Nelly]

Originally Posted by Misti

It's interesting that you guys say looking through the turn because for a lot of people this is really really hard to do.

I would also say that there are varying degrees of "looking through a turn". What I consider looking through a turn (or how far through the turn I'm looking) could be very different from what you think looking though a turn is.

Why do you think some find this easy to do while others struggle with it? Are there certain things that some do, or have done in the past that make it more second nature than others?

I remember when I was learning to drive my instructor asked me if I was a skier because I automatically shoulder checked when I changed lanes without him having to teach me to do it. He said that skiers were more natural with their visual skills than non-skiers.

Cheers,
Misti

I can't answer for the other members so here is my slant on looking through the turn.

One of the biggest things I can remember my father (complete bike nut / grease monkey) telling me was a) relax on the bars b) get your head up and look where you want to go.
As a novice rider I remember being consumed by what was happening in the few yards in front of me and then having to make hastily decisions on adjusting speed, road position etc. It was only much later when I was reading articles in the bike mags, that I realised that I was already practicing this cornering skill.

Nelly

[ozzieboy]

Originally Posted by Misti

Hi Mike,

I have a feeling that you would be able to turn the bike in even more effortlessly than you already feel like you are able to do and that the bike would feel even more flickable if you were able to bend your arms a bit so your elbows were pointing down (sitting back in the seat a little with help create more room so that you can create that bend). What that does is it allows you to press FORWARD on the bars instead of DOWN on the bars to initiate the steering. This will turn the bike MUCH quicker and with less effort that steering with arms straight and pressing down on the bars.



Mike, give this a try and see if you notice any difference. Just thought I would throw that suggestion out based on what I was seeing in the vid.

Cheers, and do get yourself out to Phillip Island for a school I'm hoping to ride that track one of these days as well. My hubby is from Down Under so we're trying to plan a visit!

Misti

Yup....that's pretty much what I do when I "get on it". More weight over the bars, chest closer to the tank.

One of the biggest reasons I don't do this on the road often is that, when a cop sees you he knows you're going hard...lol. For me I see a cop through the trees in the distance and stand the bike up and mash the brakes for a sec, then ease off. He's now seen me and starts to look and sees a fat old hairy bugga chugging up the Eagle, instead of the hoon who was doing 140+ just a second ago...lol.

The 'D' road is one of the main places for it, as the speeds require you to get the head down on the tank anyhow.

And yes, it certainly does make a difference. I'll get some video of the 'D' road one day.

As for quick turn in benefits......I noticed on my track day that with the higher profile tires I slapped on for the day (Bt003/2) I tipped in faster. This in turn allows you to stay upright further into the turn, which means later braking. This means better lap times

Cheers
Mike

[Misti]

Originally Posted by ozzieboy

Yup....that's pretty much what I do when I "get on it". More weight over the bars, chest closer to the tank.

One of the biggest reasons I don't do this on the road often is that, when a cop sees you he knows you're going hard...lol. For me I see a cop through the trees in the distance and stand the bike up and mash the brakes for a sec, then ease off. He's now seen me and starts to look and sees a fat old hairy bugga chugging up the Eagle, instead of the hoon who was doing 140+ just a second ago...lol.

The 'D' road is one of the main places for it, as the speeds require you to get the head down on the tank anyhow.

And yes, it certainly does make a difference. I'll get some video of the 'D' road one day.

As for quick turn in benefits......I noticed on my track day that with the higher profile tires I slapped on for the day (Bt003/2) I tipped in faster. This in turn allows you to stay upright further into the turn, which means later braking. This means better lap times

Cheers
Mike

Thanks Mike! I guess if you were in full tuck and hang off mode then the cops might know you were pushing it But, for most riders, if they just bent their arms a bit and focussed on pushing the bars forward instead of down they would notice a big difference in their riding and they would still just look (and feel) like they were cruising on the road and not hauling it.

Yes, some of the benefits to getting the bike turned quickly are that you feel more comfortable going deeper into the turn (because you are confident that you can turn fast and not run off the road) and that in turn means later braking.

But, probably the most important benefit of being able to turn the bike quickly (or quicker than a rider might already be turning) is that you end up using less lean angle over all. Riders that turn a bike slowly end up leaning over further in a turn for longer than a rider that gets it turned faster. Riders that lazy steer also have a much higher risk of running wide in a corner (which can be deadly on the street).

I wouldn't say that quick turning is an easy skill to master though. When you first practice quick turning it can feel very jerky and the bike can feel like it is just going to fall over. What steps can you take to ensure that your quick turning isn't going to lead to jerky, frantic and unstable riding?

Misti

[k1c]

Originally Posted by Misti

Thanks Mike! I guess if you were in full tuck and hang off mode then the cops might know you were pushing it But, for most riders, if they just bent their arms a bit and focussed on pushing the bars forward instead of down they would notice a big difference in their riding and they would still just look (and feel) like they were cruising on the road and not hauling it.

Yes, some of the benefits to getting the bike turned quickly are that you feel more comfortable going deeper into the turn (because you are confident that you can turn fast and not run off the road) and that in turn means later braking.

But, probably the most important benefit of being able to turn the bike quickly (or quicker than a rider might already be turning) is that you end up using less lean angle over all. Riders that turn a bike slowly end up leaning over further in a turn for longer than a rider that gets it turned faster. Riders that lazy steer also have a much higher risk of running wide in a corner (which can be deadly on the street).

I wouldn't say that quick turning is an easy skill to master though. When you first practice quick turning it can feel very jerky and the bike can feel like it is just going to fall over. What steps can you take to ensure that your quick turning isn't going to lead to jerky, frantic and unstable riding?

Misti

Set your lane position early. Pick your turn in point. Get your seating position set on the bike before you start to brake. A bit of back brake initially to settle the chassis then off, simultaneously ease on the front brake to get some weight over the front wheel, then brake a little harder to compress the front end and steepen the steering angle. Arms gently flexed at the elbows and weight inside. Turn in, with a neutral or slightly gaining throttle to keep everything nice and stable. Gently off the brakes upto the apex. On the gas and start to stand the bike up as you see your exit. One long, slow, deep breath going in, and one long, slow, exhale coming out.

Feels lovely when you get it right.